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Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

SGTA :: Academy :: Lessons

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Ding760 on Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:46 am

Yeah truth be told that Situational Awareness lesson went pretty badly. I don't think other instructor's lessons will be like that.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  zed22 on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:06 am

add me in your list ( if there is a space  )

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  PointyHairedJedi on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:39 am

If there's room, I shall attend.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  ABCWarrrior on Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:40 pm

Ding760 wrote:Yeah truth be told that Situational Awareness lesson went pretty badly. I don't think other instructor's lessons will be like that.

I think the principle was sound ... might have been better somewhere like Prokhorovka rather than Dragon Ridge maybe.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  HowTheStoryEnds on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:34 pm

have to work today but I think I'll be able to make this. looking forward to it. Smile

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Etairos on Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:06 pm

count me in

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Brainfarter on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:42 am

Plans have changed so i no longer am occupied elsewhere. Hope there is still a spot for me.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  SteelToedSneakers on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:30 am

This is what I'm doing instead of playing today. Got a heap of wedding photos to edit and deliver to the client, so I'm unable to join the class.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Ding760 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:46 am

Well, at least you're making someone happy! Very Happy

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  firebird11 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:49 am

i am in study

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  glisa_dejan on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:58 am

i`ll be there

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Joe_Copper on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:00 am

meep

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Brainfarter on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:12 am

Thank you for a good lesson. 

Some feedback on specific lesson:

  • Smaller teams - I am thinking 3 per side
  • More discipline on the "what if-scenarios" so ppl. dont overdo their thinking
  • Take more time to explain what you would have done, instead of using the time on us pupils telling what we think is clever (and why etc.)

In general

  • TS must be push-to-talk (that humping of a pz I ausf.C while someone were breathing heavily threw me offtrack at a time)
  • I prefer personally to have a clear mission statement of today's lesson: "when we are through today's lesson we will have a wider idea of xxx"
  • Taking orders must come in first (if noone does what is told, what can we learn?)


Overall I am really pleased with the content of the lesson and am glad I took the step to join SGTA - I know I can learn more from this.

/Dingster

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Forsworn on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:39 am

It was sometimes hard to follow with so much tanks and accents (Vallu, I'm looking at you Twisted Evil). But I guess it takes time to get used to it. And it's impressive how you plan every little movement.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  glooscap on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:44 am

Vallu01 thank you for the lesson tonight. Here's my feedback;

  • Classes should be smaller. However if there are a large number of people who want to attend kill off half the team so that they can view post-mortem what's going on.
  • Lesson brief - inform us what the scenario will be before we go into the match - which map, what type of game etc. This influences the next point.
  • Clear guidance on what tank to bring (I know you told us tier 5/6 TD's or Med's). I brought a TD, but would have got a lot more out of tonight if I would have brought a Med. 


I know I sound like an ungrateful bastard, but I feel that I should have gotten a lot more out of tonight (my fault for choosing a TD!)
 
Again many thanks for spending your own time to run the lesson.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Joe_Copper on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:53 am

WoT the round based strategy game. Get it now and get the expansion "Angry Girlfriend" for free. 

To force tankers to analyze a given situation and let them to speak about it in TS is a good exercise. 
 
But I think you (Vallu01) did too much yourself. Just assign small teams (1-2 per side, 1-3 tanks (like in a platoon)), give them a short order ("take defensive position at ... attack estimated from... form spearhead to rush...") send them to an other TS channel for 1-2 minutes, so they can access the situation for themselves and act accordingly. 

This way we could play more hands and the participants would have to do more by themselves.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  lostplace on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:02 am

Good idea of a new training format with a lot of potential in smaller groups and observers in post mortem mode. I would add the suggestion that we do not let us take in a hurry when the time is running out. Actually everyone should be able to remember his last position so that we can set up the scenario exactly at the same point after a short break.

Also seems to be a good opportunity to excercise communication discipline on TS as later required in tc and cw. ;-) It's probably not encouraging our instructors if we get into hot discussions about the best choice of action. Finally it's about getting hints and ideas and not finding out the ultimate truth of what is best to do.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  we_just_dinged_em on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:03 pm

Dingster wrote:

  • TS must be push-to-talk (that humping of a pz I ausf.C while someone were breathing heavily threw me offtrack at a time)



/Dingster

Get used to this Smile Me crashing into Boosb, Vallu or Wasp is a feature of nearly every class Smile

Anyway, you guys have it easy, come to one of Dings 'sniper mode only' classes sometime...where chaos and confusion reign supreme.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  TrogEng on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:25 pm

Thanks for an informative lesson. Not an easy one to instruct on, particularly if ill disciplined students shoot back!

@ Vallu - Have you thought about initially using a white board (Twidla?) to show how you want to place all tanks. Then, students can show what they would do in the given situation. Having come up with a plan, a 15 min shooting battle with the tanks starting at the positions you've indicated and following the students stated initial plan can take place. A 'referee' could watch the resulting chaos and at battle's end draw what happened on the white board. The instructor can then comment on the battle and suggest alternative options.

This 'herding cats' exercise would require discipline from the students and strong leadership from the instructor. 

"No plan survives initial contact."

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  nilzatron on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:38 pm

As a piece of advice, I feel it would have been better if some information had been provided beforehand.

- Tank tier / type
- Format
- Map

Some people clearly had trouble adjusting to the turn-based, sort of chessgame type format and trying to explain it took too much time away from the lesson itself. There is nothing wrong with this kind of training itself (it is used in martial arts classes a lot as well, in fact), but it does require some adjusting from the participants, for some easier than for others.

I actually really like Dingster's idea of using small teams and killing off spectators from the start. It would stop "false spots" by spectators messing about. In addition the spectators would actually be able to get more out of the lesson by switching between the participants on their own team.

All in all though, informative lesson Idea

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Opa_Apo on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:25 am

My three pennies:
i did not liked it at all that some people started to arguing
- "i would shoot you, if you would go there"
- "no no no, I would shoot you"
- "no you can't shoot me there"
bla bla.
Childish.
It was not only irritating for me but also a problem for Vallu because he had to shut those ppl up.

Second thing. Nearly everybody declared to retreat and flank / regroup. Yeaaah i totally believe you. Want to see it in TCs, because i have never seen such team work on random and probably never will.

Last one. Vallu you should take T-50 or something like that from the start, this would make it a little bit faster.

All in all a good lesson. Thanks!

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Brainfarter on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:53 am

montyburns1982 wrote:
Dingster wrote:

  • TS must be push-to-talk (that humping of a pz I ausf.C while someone were breathing heavily threw me offtrack at a time)



/Dingster

Get used to this Smile Me crashing into Boosb, Vallu or Wasp is a feature of nearly every class Smile

Anyway, you guys have it easy, come to one of Dings 'sniper mode only' classes sometime...where chaos and confusion reign supreme.
The humping didnt bother me (it was fun to see it being pushed around) - it was the fact that somebody were breathing heavily on ts at the same time that really got to me, kinda scary.

;-)

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  nilzatron on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:38 am

Opa_Apo wrote:Second thing. Nearly everybody declared to retreat and flank / regroup. Yeaaah i totally believe you. Want to see it in TCs, because i have never seen such team work on random and probably never will.

That was the point of slowing time into a turn-based format, isn't it? To give people more time to analyze and make better decisions, thus highlighting flaws in their on-the-spot decision making during regular games.

You don't see such teamwork in randoms, but most of those people are not actively trying to improve themselves. We are. Even if the rest of your team is not working together, you have to make your decisions based on what they and your opponents are doing.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  Vallu01 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:50 am

nilzatron wrote:
Opa_Apo wrote:Second thing. Nearly everybody declared to retreat and flank / regroup. Yeaaah i totally believe you. Want to see it in TCs, because i have never seen such team work on random and probably never will.

That was the point of slowing time into a turn-based format, isn't it? To give people more time to analyze and make better decisions, thus highlighting flaws in their on-the-spot decision making during regular games.

You don't see such teamwork in randoms, but most of those people are not actively trying to improve themselves. We are. Even if the rest of your team is not working together, you have to make your decisions based on what they and your opponents are doing.

I think the point was that some expected too much teamwork from their teammates. In randoms it's better to go help your allies, than expect them to come to help you. You should never expect your allies to help you in a daring push in the open/flank/behind the enemies/through a cap in enemy lines etc. But if you see someone else pushing and you think you can gain a tactical advantage if you help him, you should go. Bottom line: In randoms don't expect your team to work as a team, but help your team wherever you can.

And thanks for all the feedback. Next time it will be different (and hopefully better).

Smaller teams, players with mic, for faster comms.
Potential observers will take a low tier tank and will be killed at the beginning.
Twiddla will be used to give starting positions and the "combat zone"
When taking turns, everyone has limited range (Kind of like in turn based strategy). This is to get rid of tanks moving from flank to flank while others stay still. Which can happen in randoms... But the point is to give everyone time to react and think of a response.

I'm also thinking of giving opposite teams limited information. Dividing them to different channels. This would require having someone in the other team to organise the turns, as it would be unfair to give up the positions for just one team. Just a thought so far.

I'll try something different at the end of the next lesson also.
We will create to big teams (15 vs 15 is possible). We will let it play out any random game. At some point I'm gonna yell out "STOP!" And look at the tactical situation. Give feedback on what everyone else is doing. Could they do something else, what they should keep in mind etc. And then resume the battle, and freeze it again later.

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Re: Essentials - Situational Awareness [Completed]

Post  nilzatron on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:13 am

That sounds pretty good as an end exercise, I like that Smile

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