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Asking for a favor.

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Asking for a favor.

Post  Observer on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:19 am

It would be nice if people could take a look at this thread and perhaps keep it active.
I'm sorry for the problems I've caused, but a major portion of my frustration is explained in the thread below.

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/237925-gold-shell-analysis-and-petition-for-balance/

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done

Post  lazydot on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:11 pm

thanks for sharing.
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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Sapaki on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:52 pm

Read the thread, voted in the poll, posted a reply.

I think that should do the trick. Should you require anything else give us a shout, we would be happy to help.
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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Ding760 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:55 pm

Done...
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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Daeworn on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:18 pm

Read, voted. I am not sure if it is mentioned there, but I came up with another option, how balance gold. The more penetration you get the less dmg you do = sacrifice dmg to get better penetration. Secondly if you put ammo cap on premium ammo, it makes the swapping perk for loaders (crew) more useful Smile

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  CountOfTuscany on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:47 am

Read, voted.

Daeworn wrote:The more penetration you get the less dmg you do = sacrifice dmg to get better penetration. Secondly if you put ammo cap on premium ammo

I've been thinking about these options too. Would do the job.
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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Vampir_Kifla on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:55 am

Read, voted. I really hope WG listens and improves the balance of the gold ammo.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Lemmingtrain on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:08 am

Read and voted. Some good insights there - fingers crossed
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Hai

Post  Warheart1992 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:54 pm

Hi Kawa , I read your topic , and wont deny that you make alot of points and prove with hard data that premium ammo f**ks armor based tanks . But one of the things I have learnt on the forums , is that trying to make your voice heard to devs through forum threads , is like trying to put out a forest fire with a bucket of water . Im not saying that posting about those subjects is wrong , but sadly the possibilities of this getting passed to the guys it matters is slim .The only actual way of being heard was by joining supertest , and this was closed some time ago Sad . I just hope now that thread doesnt evolve into a flaming contest and gets closed

Cya on teh cybertankz afro
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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  crazytony0 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:14 pm

posted a reply to and voted.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Observer on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:51 am

Sent the poll data to Overlord, got ignored.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Vampir_Kifla on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:29 am

Observer wrote:Sent the poll data to Overlord, got ignored.
Did he answer you or just ignored you?
If it is the latter, I think you'd need votes from a bigger group of people, much bigger than 200. Something around 10k would get his attention.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  we_just_dinged_em on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:59 am

Vampir_Kifla wrote:
Observer wrote:Sent the poll data to Overlord, got ignored.
Did he answer you or just ignored you?
If it is the latter, I think you'd need votes from a bigger group of people, much bigger than 200. Something around 10k would get his attention.

and that's the crux of it; maybe 1% of the playerbase reads the forums, so you're wasting your breath.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Observer on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:28 am

That's the mindset I do not agree with. Just because it seems to have little influence, I shouldn't even try?
Did Martin Luther think the same way when he split a large portion away from the Catholics?
My goal is to raise awareness, not some miracle change overnight.
All I ask in return, is some form of reply or recognition of the issues I'm raising. Being completely ignored (yes, no reply) means he chose to avoid the issue at hand and pretend it never exist, considering he replies to much less concerning stuff like "I didn't get to play on pearl river within 50 games".

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  we_just_dinged_em on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:37 am

Observer wrote:That's the mindset I do not agree with. Just because it seems to have little influence, I shouldn't even try?
Did Martin Luther think the same way when he split a large portion away from the Catholics?
My goal is to raise awareness, not some miracle change overnight.
All I ask in return, is some form of reply or recognition of the issues I'm raising. Being completely ignored (yes, no reply) means he chose to avoid the issue at hand and pretend it never exist, considering he replies to much less concerning stuff like "I didn't get to play on pearl river within 50 games".

No Kawa, what I'm saying is not everyone thinks this is the game breaking issue you think it is, there are a group of hardcore whiners on the forum anyway which is probably one of the reasons it gets ignored (premium ammo, arty, MM, hidden algorithms etc.) Comparing a video game to Dr King seems a bit over the top to me.

for me, I would rather they sort out the crappy MM, the bugs, introduce some properly balanced maps etc before balancing premium (not gold) ammo, but that's just me.

Still, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and mine is no more or less valid than yours Wink

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Vampir_Kifla on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:57 am

Kawa, I didn't mean to give up, quite the opposite. I meant that you should definitely continue to raise awareness about that problem and be very persistent about it (and with Overlord, he can't ignore you forever)

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Observer on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:16 am

@Vampir
Oh, I'm aware that my sample size isn't large enough to be representative. However, it does give preliminary data to my cause, and that's what I'm showing. The lack of reply, however, means they don't even show interest in the field.

@Monty
Are you overlord in diguise or something? You essentially copied the same stuff he told me 2 months ago, that not everyone shares my notions on gold shells, and thus nothing should be done.

Also, please, take your time to understand my comments. Dr. King? Really? Do people still have difficulty knowing that Martin Luther is NOT Martin Luther King Jr?
I thought that would be quite obvious with the Catholic statement.
Martin Luther was a 16th century German monk that opposed the sale of indulgences. He didn't want to confront the church itself, so instead, he did the common practice of criticism at that time, posting his 95 theses on the door of the town church.
He didn't gather a mob or started some kind of riot to make this happen, nor did he really spread his opinion out too much, but the result was that this action, posting his opinions, started a massive revolution that formed what we today call the protestant church.
The example was simply to state that one does not need many followers to make a point, and that if the points are valid enough, people will naturally be more aware of the issue. Martin Luthers thesis essentially made people think about what the Catholic church has become, namely that they started to focus more on greed and wealth rather than the virtue of god, and thus many people broke away from the Catholic church and later, the Catholic church accepted the criticism and got rid of indulgences.

Martin Luther King Jr, was a clergyman of the 20th century in USA. He raised awareness of racism, discrimination and was the leader of the civil rights movement. This had nothing to do with religion, but about the mentality and laws that were creating a lot of tension between the different racial ethnicity in a modern urban environment.

Also, sure, you can call them premium ammo but honestly, nitpicking on THAT? Isn't it obvious what kind of ammo I'm referring to?
Also, balance of maps... you are fully aware that map balance depends completely on what kind of tanks are driven there right? As far as I see, most maps have advantages/disadvantages regardless of what side you start on, but it is mainly what kind of tanks that you drive on such maps that gives an indication of how screwed your team is. Aka, if your team has a bunch of scouts + arties against a team with alot of heavies + few arties (tier 5-8 scouts usually take up the spot of a tier 9 heavy/TD in matchmaker) on himmelsdorf, you're most likely screwed.
This is a matchmaker issue, not a map issue.
Matchmaking is fairly hard to properly "fix" because there are extremely many factors to take into consideration.
Tanks performance depending on map, player experiences, modules, synergy, balance according to enemy tanks to name a few.
Gold shells (yes, I chose to call it gold shell because I think only cheapshots who want to win regardless of balance, aka, crown whoring, are people who buy it) mainly just need a bit balancing of the different parameters, pen being the most important.

Also, you say gold shells aren't an issue in the game. I've been bugged on perhaps 2-4 times within 4 months on weird terrain, aka being unable to move, stuck on a small piece of sand or something. This, hardly affects my general experience because it's a 1/1000 thing, if you think that's a major issue you might as well say ammo racking is a huge problem within the game. The thing is, those things are so rare that I don't find the reason for them to be a major priority.
Maybe you don't know much about the issue as you're mainly an arty player, but let me tell you the woes of the people at tier 5-6 where derps fly around everywhere, and the woes of tier 10 tanks where your armor means absolutely nothing despite sacrificing mobility/firepower just to gain that.
Of course, I'd say many people don't care because they'd just buy a derp tank or a tank that has good gold shells, and there, their gameplay experience problem solved, but this reduces the viability of pretty much half the tanks in the game.
The tanks are balanced according to their mobility/armor/firepower for most parts, so you'd eliminate pretty much every tank that has lower mobility/firepower to gain armor with the current gold shell balance.
Imagine it like this, if your grille would HE pen every target it fired at, would you call that balanced? People who play Grille, might just go "it's natural because we have reload time blah blah blah" to justify the use of such things, but let's be honest, most people will defend their own tanks regardless if they are overperforming or not.

I do not support that junk, I own a bit of everything and I'm quite sure I'm aware of what tanks are obsolete and which are not. Otherwise, why would I even criticize my own tanks and ask for their gold shells to be rebalanced? Does it benefit my tanks? NO!

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  HowTheStoryEnds on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:49 am

maybe you should found a clan of very good players that kill everyone with gold shells while also announcing it every game, so that the rest of the WoT world starts to whine about "getting ROFLstomped 15:0 by those gold-using noobs!". Like fighting fire with fire. Neutral At the end of the game you could throw in a link to an anti-gold petition or something.

The best way to get people tired of OP things is to smack them in the face with it usually.
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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Observer on Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:30 am

The only area where this applies is in CW, and everyone spams gold there regardless. And i've seen plenty of tripple T57 toons spamming HEAT, it's usually an autowin.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  crazytony0 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:49 am

montyburns1982 wrote:
Observer wrote:That's the mindset I do not agree with. Just because it seems to have little influence, I shouldn't even try?
Did Martin Luther think the same way when he split a large portion away from the Catholics?
My goal is to raise awareness, not some miracle change overnight.
All I ask in return, is some form of reply or recognition of the issues I'm raising. Being completely ignored (yes, no reply) means he chose to avoid the issue at hand and pretend it never exist, considering he replies to much less concerning stuff like "I didn't get to play on pearl river within 50 games".

No Kawa, what I'm saying is not everyone thinks this is the game breaking issue you think it is, there are a group of hardcore whiners on the forum anyway which is probably one of the reasons it gets ignored (premium ammo, arty, MM, hidden algorithms etc.) Comparing a video game to Dr King seems a bit over the top to me.

for me, I would rather they sort out the crappy MM, the bugs, introduce some properly balanced maps etc before balancing premium (not gold) ammo, but that's just me.

Still, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and mine is no more or less valid than yours Wink

the difference is that MM got improved a lot from where it comes, and apart from skill based mm, there is actualy not that much to be improved (exept for arty wich they are working on) while penetration/gold shells balance where way better then they are now.

but anyway, my opinion is going to the toilet now

@kawa: i am pretty sure overlord just doesnt always read all coments. he is not ignoring you on purpose, just try to post something like that in the first 10 posts on his next article and he will have readed it for sure.

edit: altough not so sure about all that anymore when i see he answers the post just below that one of you

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  we_just_dinged_em on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:16 am

Fair enough Kawa, I misread your post, no need for the history lesson as I'm a grown man and I can use Google thanks. I'll apologise for that one.

Anyway, my point remains the same, using that kind of real world example to support your opinions of a video game is off in my opinion. But hey, it's not illegal to have opinions (not yet anyway).

I was wondering how long it would take for the 'you dont play tier 10 tanks' argument, I would say right back at you because by your own admission you dont play low tiers so how do you know what the derpers are doing in Tier 5? I do actually play tier 5 quite frequently and noobs with derpers are still noobs and die easily. Its the pro players you have to watch out for, and they are dangerous in any tank. One of my fellow tooners is a pro in his T34 at tier 5 and regularly owns these OP derpers one on one. He uses no premium ammo.

what you can't seem to grasp is you want WOT to be your vision of what things should be. Like it or not, there are thousands more players than the few that visit the forums and as such your poll/data/survey whatever is completely irrelevant and hence why the developers ignore yours and others open letters/polls/feedback whatever. If gold ammo was a major issue the playerbase would be leaving in droves, as it is WOT has never been so popular. Thats the free market for you.

You want WOT to be some sort of mental puzzle that requires degree level intellect to succeed in. Thats fine and would be an interesting game for a minority, but the playerbase would be 1% of what is now and WG would go bust. I imagine most people (myself included) want to have a laugh and blow some stuff up, not spend all day reading up about armour thickness, shell pen, angles etc. I play WOT for relaxation not study.

I want things in WOT (the constant arty whines and nerfs annoy me) but I dont go bleating on the forums or to the developers about it. Why? cos it wont change a thing.

In summary, theres nothing wrong with your point of view (you have as much right to it as I have to mine) and you present your case well, but just understand most people dont give a crap about 'gold' ammo, and until there is a mass exodus from the game, neither will WG. Just accept that.

Anyway, I dont think its productive to carry on the argument, but in my opinion nothing you do will change the availability of premium ammunition for credits, as most people dont seem that bothered and its a small selection of the playerbase that is (very vocally I might add) complaining.

At the end of the day, it's internet tanks, dont get so worked up about it.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  PointyHairedJedi on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:25 am

I think the suggestions in that thread (which I echoed) for a hard cap on the number of premium shells that a tank can carry are probably the best solution for keeping everyone (except the ones who want it out altogether) happy - it then becomes something you have to think about using, not just something you can spam, and thus the tactical element is reintroduced. If you're in a derp Hetzer or Sherman and suddenly you've only got a very few HEAT shells, you have to think very carefully about which targets to actually use them against. There does need to be work on the hard gun stats too though, because even that change wouldn't help the top tiers that much if you're in something like a Maus, I'm certainly in agreement with Kawa on that one.
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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  Observer on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:16 am

montyburns1982 wrote:Fair enough Kawa, I misread your post, no need for the history lesson as I'm a grown man and I can use Google thanks. I'll apologise for that one.

Anyway, my point remains the same, using that kind of real world example to support your opinions of a video game is off in my opinion. But hey, it's not illegal to have opinions (not yet anyway).

I was wondering how long it would take for the 'you dont play tier 10 tanks' argument, I would say right back at you because by your own admission you dont play low tiers so how do you know what the derpers are doing in Tier 5? I do actually play tier 5 quite frequently and noobs with derpers are still noobs and die easily. Its the pro players you have to watch out for, and they are dangerous in any tank. One of my fellow tooners is a pro in his T34 at tier 5 and regularly owns these OP derpers one on one. He uses no premium ammo.

what you can't seem to grasp is you want WOT to be your vision of what things should be. Like it or not, there are thousands more players than the few that visit the forums and as such your poll/data/survey whatever is completely irrelevant and hence why the developers ignore yours and others open letters/polls/feedback whatever. If gold ammo was a major issue the playerbase would be leaving in droves, as it is WOT has never been so popular. Thats the free market for you.

You want WOT to be some sort of mental puzzle that requires degree level intellect to succeed in. Thats fine and would be an interesting game for a minority, but the playerbase would be 1% of what is now and WG would go bust. I imagine most people (myself included) want to have a laugh and blow some stuff up, not spend all day reading up about armour thickness, shell pen, angles etc. I play WOT for relaxation not study.

I want things in WOT (the constant arty whines and nerfs annoy me) but I dont go bleating on the forums or to the developers about it. Why? cos it wont change a thing.

In summary, theres nothing wrong with your point of view (you have as much right to it as I have to mine) and you present your case well, but just understand most people dont give a crap about 'gold' ammo, and until there is a mass exodus from the game, neither will WG. Just accept that.

Anyway, I dont think its productive to carry on the argument, but in my opinion nothing you do will change the availability of premium ammunition for credits, as most people dont seem that bothered and its a small selection of the playerbase that is (very vocally I might add) complaining.

At the end of the day, it's internet tanks, dont get so worked up about it.

Let me remind you that WoT didn't get gold shells for credits before just a few months ago! If your arguments holds water and say the playerbase would only be 1% of what it is now, the company would've never succeeded in the first place.
And you call basic school knowledge something that I had to google up? What kind of retarded insult is that?
Also you don't think I play tier 5s? I've played tier 5 specifically for testing out the derp junk, and yes, good players pretty much steamroll if they spam gold. Just because I don't prefer to play tier 5, doesn't mean I completely avoid it, otherwise how do you think I ever reach my high tiers?
Also, I'd like this "pro" guy of yours to face me with a gold derp if he wants, as I'm fully aware how strong a T-34/type T-34 is, considering I'm quite goddamn good at playing it, but unless I'm a complete retard whom just sits in place for the more accurate gun to fire at me, I doubt he can win against a gun that 2 shoots him as I'm not as stupid as to try to snipe him from 300m distance.

Also, whiners won't change a thing? Are you fucking out of your mind? Weren't you here during the reduction of the french heavy line into a massive pile of crap? As the first autoloaders, the community whined so hard that the french heavies were nerfed to hell for half a year.
Also, E-100, same deal. When it first came out, people whined like hell because it essentially combined T30 and Maus together and on top of it, it had full out spaced armor that made many arty shots obsolete. So, you say it was wrong for the community to complain? Of course, it got nerfed a bit too hard and for way too long time, but feedback is what makes the game go towards certain directions.
If you think nobody should voice their opinion because nothing happens, then I'd completely disagree with that.

I like how little you appreciate intelligence, it reflects back on you, really. Do you honestly think the playerbase doesn't give a shit about becoming better at the game? Not everyone are like you, whom apparently only plays for the sake of playing and nothing else. If actions in our world does not require any level of intelligence, then we wouldn't even be alive.

Also, don't get worked up about it? This isn't just about the game, it's about how annoying of a path human mentality goes towards. You accuse me of using real world example to support my opinions on a video game? Do you even comprehend English my dear sir? I used the example as a support for my persistence in expressing my opinions, it has NOTHING to do with any arguments related to my opinions regarding the game! If nobody expressed discontent, then who would know of it?
If slaves didn't think express their discontent, if in your misunderstanding, Dr. King didn't express his thoughts about discrimination, if people didn't start criticizing discoveries, what kind of world do you think we would live in?

The only reason you want me to shut up, is because you appear to be somewhat content. However, I'm not, and many are not either. Many aren't as noticeable as me when criticizing things, but you go ask around and see how many people think gold shells make the game more fun. Of course, you can come back at me with your bullshit about "it doesn't make a difference", but at least I attempt it. You've given up before you even started anything!

Oh and yeah I'm quite hostile towards you, and as you said, everyone have an opinion about something. The difference is quite simply, since you don't tell any of your opinions, your opinions don't matter at all because nobody knows about them. Even if many don't give a crap about my opinions, at least there are some who do, unlike yours as you're too lazy to even bother trying.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  crazytony0 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:19 am

@monty: there is no alternative to wot, that is why there is no exodus since wt doesn'thave tanks yet. Also a lot of people most likly think just as me that they don'twant to lose all the time they invested so far. So actualy eaven if thsoe folks like me don'tleave wot, it warns me a lot to never start on any other game from wg, thus they might lose in the long run. And videogaming industry has tought us that eaven the big firms can go bust relatively fast.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

Post  lostplace on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:39 am

I am pretty surprised to see how a small detail issue of a video game can make people offend each other. It's just about a game, not world peace. Sorry, even good arguments are loosing convincibility if they are served up with personal offense.

As to the sense of complaints and polls I agree with monty. Wargaming mostly bases decissions on game changes on hard statistical facts gathered from the players and games, not on forum statements of a relative small number. E.g. how many people left the game since introducing gold ammo, how many make use of it, how many bought premium tanks or premium accounts to earn the credits for it, etc. Disbalances of specific tanks? Can be fixed locally, e.g. VK2801.

Don't get me wrong, I'd also prefer not to have premium ammo in the game, but premium ammo is simply a fact and producer Mikhail Zhivets recently stated in a video interview that he considers it's introduction as a "great success" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rERhitm_iCQ). I'm afraid even both Martin Luthers together wouldn't convince Wargaming to remove premium ammo. Wink

lostplace

PS: Btw, what is actually the difference between a couple of gold shells and equipment like a vertical stabilizer? Both finally result in the same, they increase the effective damage dealt, cost credits and give benefit to some tanks more and to others less. Nobody complains about equipment. Why? Because we are all simply used to it. And thats exactly what will happen with premium ammo after a few more patches at the last.

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Re: Asking for a favor.

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