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Overlord has multitasking issues

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Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:44 pm

Mimei OtonashiiFebruary 28, 2013 at 4:37 AM
Isn't it better to focus on refining the game a bit than to just add new material? I know new tech trees and tanks are mainly there for generating revenue, and I don't mean to be rude, but isn't the monthly premium accounts enough to sustain the company while issues with the game is taken up?
The gold shell for credit thing is a noble thing, as it allowed free players access to gold shells, but it also meant that people with tier 8 prem tanks could easily shoot as many gold shells as they want.
It also means people are much less reluctant to use gold shells in general, thus creating a bigger gap between prem players and non prem players.

Also, while normal AP shells are somewhat balanced pen wise (Maus and E-100 are still a bit on the low side, but its somewhat bearable), the prem shells are by far not.
If you compare the prem shell of IS-7 and T110E5, the penetration difference is a holy nutty 81mm. Let's put this into a scenario.

A Maus is known for its fair difficulty in playing right, angling is the major key as it has the lowest DPM at its tier, having almost the same reload time as object 268 to load a 490 dmg shell as the latter has for loading a 850 dmg shell.
Maus players angle their tank and counterattack enemies that bounce on them as looking straight at enemies leaves the turret cheeks vulnearble. The turret is angled at a steeper angle than the hull due to the turret cheek weakness, while hull is angled at approximately degrees.
40 degrees angle on 180mm side armor means horizontal effective armor of 180/cos(50) = 280, meaning a fairly high chance of bouncing the 260mm pen shells of standard AP of IS-7, T110E5 etc. In city maps, the angle can be at around 30 degrees (very steep on sides) as you can rely on hard cover to protect the weak lower front hull. This is one of the main things Maus is good for.
Now, if we put that into math, 180/cos(60) = 360mm, oh wow, this is where Maus shines, it's impenetratable to anything but a max roll from object 268 this way. What are the downsides? You're effectively immobilized, you are vulnerable while shooting and if enemies have arties, you're quite vulnerable, also enemies can just outright avoid that path.
Now, 360mm armor... that's less than the premium pen of T110E5, this pretty much means Maus cannot even fire on the enemy T110E5 unless it wants to angle itself in a way that it gets penetrated. So, is there any reason not to pick T110E5? I'm not saying the T110E5 is OP, it's fine the way it is with normal AP shells in my opinion, as it is technically weaker in terms of armor compared to the lower DPM IS-7, less hp than both E-100 and Maus etc, but with gold shells, it doesn't make sense anymore. Another point to why Maus suffers very hard from gold shells, is that unlike other tanks like E-100 and T110E5, the tracks count as a part of the tank itself and doesn't absorb the shell as spaced armor as on the others, this is a severe disadvantage for a tank that no longer has significant side armor.

Let's list up the prem shell pen differences with AP shell differences to see the balancing issue. I'm only going to do the heavy tanks just to give an example.


AP/Gold/Difference
IS-7: 260/300/40
IS-4: 268/400/132

Maus: 246/311/65
E-100: 235/334/99

T110E5: 269/381/112
T57 Heavy: 369/381/112

AMX 50B: 267/351/84

FV215B: 269/352/83

113: 257/400/143

Interesting notes:
Max difference between AP shells: E-100(235) - Many (269) -> 34mm diff.
Max difference between Gold shells: IS-7(300) - 2 Tanks(400) -> 100 diff.

Mimei OtonashiiFebruary 28, 2013 at 4:37 AM
Also, the gold shells all cost 10-15 gold, but yield so different pen advantages compared to each other. IS-7 has ti pay 10 gold for a 40mm difference, whereas T110E5 can pay the same for a whopping 112 difference.
I'm not saying the tanks are imbalanced, I'm saying the gold shell performance are imbalanced. This further complicates matters, because where IS-7 and Maus are slow aimers with relatively poor accuracy, they already need time to deal damage. Tanks with great stabilizers such as FV215B and T110E5, whom on top of that have higher DPM and much higher pen with gold shells, can easily shoot and pen almost wherever they want.
When gold shells reaches this high amount of pen, armor no longer have an effect on gameplay, its more about aimtime and damage output.

I sincerly advise WG to take my arguments into consideration, as with the gold shells for credits change, made the end game content change completely. No longer are players either unable or reluctant in using gold shells in clan wars, so the balance between the end game tanks now has to take into consideration that AP shells are no longer the standard shell, gold APCR or HEAT are now the standard shells of clan wars. Gold shells can stay in game as wargaming.net does need money, I'm not being unrealistic here, but please do balance their penetration values to reflect upon the normal AP penetrations.

Also I agree with some people above, WoT cannot seriously think of being part of eSports as long as the huge random factor exists. While some randomness are accepted (critical hits in arena games or dispersion in FPS games), world of tanks already have dispersion as random factor. 25%-+ on both damage and pen makes it completely unrealistic to call the game highly skill based, as luck rolls highly determine if a tank lives an extra shot or not. 4-6 extra high rollers on one team can mean the difference between a victory or defeat, such as how just a few moments ago, my team lost because I failed to finish off 2 (amx 90s) x 330 hp enemies with my conqueror (rolled 320 and 300) allowing them to destroy the rest of my team from the flank. Another would be the issue in autoloader tanks, as one expect the dmg to be somewhat near the average dmg, say if you're an amx 50B, and you see an enemy with 1300hp, you'd honestly estimate you can easily destroy that person with your full salvo with average 1600 dmg. However, since the "insecurity" range is so extremely big, if one has to think from eSport mindset, that's a big risk, as you risk having to reload and potentially die. If the range was 10%, it makes the game more exciting, as with just 10%, gambling is much more rare, and much more about calculated risk taking. Having 25& just clouds the game, you have no real estimate of what kind of damage you will deal. Sometimes you'd just roll your 300 hp object 268 out, seeing an enemy tank with 700 hp, and thinks your 850 dmg average should be able to salvage this game if you're quick with the trigger, and just to be slapped in the face with a 650 dmg roll.

A main income source is from prem accounts, and if you wish for people to stay, you have to address the issues the game has rather than just releasing new purchasable content (yes, new tech trees are gold generators).

OverlordFebruary 28, 2013 at 12:16 PM
Huh, so many controversial statements above.

What exactly is the main point?
Sorry Smile

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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Ding760 on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:47 pm

Pwhahaha!!!! XD

I wonder if he even read the whole thing! lol!
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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Rancidpunk on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:17 am

Bet he would have bothered reading it if it was pointing out a flaw that cost them gold.

With WarThunder just being Greenlit for Steam and putting player controlled tanks and ships into the mix soon WG need to sort their shit out with WoT unless they really do imagine that they can just keep signing up infinite new people to replace the pissed off players.

On one of my many chat bans the mod slipped up and said he would have banned me for life (for me swearing at a Polish platoon that just sat at spawn talking about how wonderful it is to be Polish until they died) if I hadn't had a premium account for so long! Kind of shows they do care about retaining paying customers but pissed me off oddly that I got treated less severely than a non premium player would have.
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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Guest on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:22 am

That is shown by a member of my former clan, a guy called guinty.
He basically swore off the GMs and replied to a "missbehaviour warning letter" with
"I've paid over 500£ on this game, do you really want to remove me?"
WG doesn't question him ever again.

Anyway... here's the continous stream of BS from overlord.

Mimei OtonashiiFebruary 28, 2013 at 1:34 PM

x_x;; Uhm... did you read anything of the above? I'm not sure what's controversial about it, I'm merely comparing game stats.

Main points: Credit shells are fairly balanced regarding each other, gold shells are by far not.

Point 2: Certain tanks become pointless with certain gold shells.

Point 3: The tanks with heavy armor that's made redundant by gold shells, in return have the gold shells with lowest pen.

Point 4: Pen gain for the same amount of gold is too vastly different from each other (IS-7 40 gain compared to T110E5 112 gain)

Point 5: Gold shells for credits just widened the gap between gold spenders (those who have tier 8 prems) and free players, and made them spammable for those players who only need 1 tier 8 prem game to stock up on 15 gold shells.
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Mimei OtonashiiFebruary 28, 2013 at 1:38 PM

Oh, forgot point 6:

Dispersion + 25%+- pen + 25%+- damage makes the game too random to be considered professional.
When a very large portion of the game is decided by sheer luck, it cannot enter the competitive branch that easily.

OverlordFebruary 28, 2013 at 2:31 PM

I did read you message, but failed to get the idea of it.

Regarding your points:

1. With the option of buying prem shells for credits you can always find the price that is fair for you.

2. Generally speaking, it's inevitable and acceptable that "certain" tanks are becoming more/less popular over time. Balance is not set in stone.

3. Armour still matters, even tho its importance was decreased by prem ammo usage growth. We have further plans on how to improve things here - that will be done in one of the upcoming updates.

4. "Pen" is not the only parameter of ammo.

5. Nope, everyone has opportunity to take advantage of prem ammo now. You don't necessarily have to spend your money, especially for random.

6. Again, this. Look through your aiming circle on T29 standing 250m away - enemy armour is stretching from 102mm (hull) to 279 mm (mantlet) - that's what matters, not some pen randomization which follows normal distribution.

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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Rancidpunk on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:56 am

6. Again, this. Look through your aiming circle on T29 standing 250m away - enemy armour is stretching from 102mm (hull) to 279 mm (mantlet) - that's what matters, not some pen randomization which follows normal distribution.

The rest is just the usual feed the customer crap stuff but this bit uses a lot of words to say absolutely nothing other than all that matters in WoT is that a T29 has different thickness's of armour.

Luckily War Thunder has the Greenlight from Steam now so tanks and ships should be on there soon.
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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Guest on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:11 am

I got his final answer.

"Your ideas might not be accepted by others"

Those aren't ideas z_z;; those are pointing out issues with the game.

I even pointed out to him that his example must be the most extreme of all examples in game, I told him to attempt to fire a tiger 8.8 on ferdy upper superstructure of tiger front plate to see if randomness doesn't have anything to say, or try a type vs type battle.

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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  crazytony0 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:59 am

i knew already who u was on his blog, as u write the same examples to him as u do to me Smile
its not the first time that he clearly dont realy read a post, as he is clearly answering other questions (its like writing an email to some support, i always hate it since they dont read your mail anyway and come up with the standard copy paste answer: 1first check if your computer is properly plugged in, then check if,.. Evil or Very Mad ) I do think however, that one day they will realize the gold shell problem, only question is, how long will this take and what action will they take? My estimate is gold armour Neutral

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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Denolven on Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:05 am

Same old same old. The game doesn't need to be good, it just needs to be good enough to sell. And they never said their game is balanced in the first place.

It's just like they say. They watch what we do, not what we say. Capitalism has some issues, but one thing is really good about it: it's brutally honest.
If you really care, write them a letter (a real one, not a lazy digital stuff that everybody can just ignore) telling them why you stopped paying. Given enough people do that, you can bet they take a closer look. Of course, you would have to stop paying them.

It's good that you care to talk to him in the first place. But if I were him, I probably wouldn't listen either. Or rather care about completely different things, that is. If you want to reach him, think about what he wants, not what you want.
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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  Guest on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:35 am

Then you didn't read my post either Denolven.
I told him that players care about end game contents as well, and that a major source of income is the monthly prem payments they recieve. They risk losing a big playerbase due to 2 factors.
1: People with the "non viable" tier X quit because their tanks are pretty much useless after months of grinding.
2: New people quit because they get derped at tier 3-6 by HEAT spammers.

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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  HowTheStoryEnds on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:17 pm

I guess that's somewhat their goal: to get eevryone to spam heat so premium subs rise or gold acquisitions rise. So in the end those derp tanks will be all that's left and you'd get a more level playing field, beit a more lucrative one?
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Re: Overlord has multitasking issues

Post  MadInAShed on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:51 pm

Harald_Brinkhof wrote:I guess that's somewhat their goal: to get eevryone to spam heat so premium subs rise or gold acquisitions rise. So in the end those derp tanks will be all that's left and you'd get a more level playing field, beit a more lucrative one?

The thing is though I buy premium account and have various premium tanks (including the big cash makers T34 and T59 and I don't earn enough silver to spend it on both premium ammo and the grinding/buying of tanks - there is always something else i need to spend my money on!

It's not until the facts are laid down that you realise the disparity with regards to gold ammo either, so thanks for taking the time to get the figures together. It makes for interesting reading especially when you think about how much they tried to balance tanks before cash for gold ammo came out, but yet seemingly gave just random numbers to gold ammo!
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